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Pierre Groslot-Grosleau marié avec Marguerite Coutenay

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Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

daciodan

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 12 Nov. 2011 11:25AM
Classification: Requête
Modifié: 12 Nov. 2011 12:24AM

I posted this same data on another thread started by the same OP. http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.canada.quebec.....

It helps to keep the dialogue on one thread.

Marie Frappier and Marguerite Coutnenais were not the person, Frappier was the daughter-in-law of Coutenais.

There are trees on the internet that cite Marguerite Coutenais as Marguerite Coutenais dit(e) Frappier. I assert this is not true, incorrect, completely erroneous.

The OP seeks to find a document that definitively proves and can VERIFY and be verified that David Pierre Groleau (b abt 1808) and Marguerite (Groleau) Sabourin (b abt 1809) were siblings and of the same parents, Pierre Groleau (b abt 1778) and Marguerite Countenais (abt 1791).

The marriage record for Marguerite Groleau (b abt 1809) to Paul Sabourin has been found and confirms her parentage.

The marriage record for David Pierre Groleau (b abt 1808) to Marie Frappier has not been found, and therefore his parentage can not be absolutely confirmed. I believe this marriage occurred about 1835, and in Montebello. There are no records in this parish for the period of Oct 1834-Oct 1935. The Montebello priest was removed to Nouvelle Longueuil during that time. If there is a record for this marriage, I couldn't find it in the db's on-line.

There are enough references* (see below) in other documentation to assert these two were siblings and of the same parentage, however, there is no one specific document that makes it irrefutable in written form.

The OP is seeking definitive proof to link them for purposes detailed in another thread on this board. They're seeking evidence/documentation of aboriginal ancestry/origin in a line.

*I have examined dozens of baptismal records of the next generation (children of David Pierre Groleau (b abt 1808), his sister Marguerite (Groleau) Sabourin (b abt 1809), as well as other siblings) and found instances of them as godparents to one another's children, this was/is a common practice. However, NONE of the records emphatically state the relationship to the child, ie aunt/uncle-tante/oncle. This particular priest did not include that language in the records, some did, this one didn't. Therefore, the relationship can only be asserted, but is not absolute.

The "hook" is the 1861 Census for Pierre David Groleau (b abt 1808). He and his children are identified as "M", Metis/Mulatto. This implies aboriginal ancestry, and evidence leads to Marguerite Coutenais, the (asserted) mother of Pierre David Groleau (b abt 1808), .

The OP, a descendant of Marguerite (Groleau) Sabourin (b abt 1809), is seeking evidence of aboriginal ancestry. There is no aboriginal designation in any census record for Marguerite (Groleau) Sabourin (b abt 1809) as there is for Pierre David Groleau (b abt 1808). Therefore, the backdoor to prove this lies in finding a document that definitively proves these two were siblings. I have not found that one singular document, there may not be one. I have found enough documentation to satisfy my assertions they were, but I'm not the entity the OP needs to satisfy in their goal.

There is a written reference to Marguerite Coutenais as "sauvagesse" in the bap record of her (and husband, Pierre Groleau) son, Jean Baptiste Groleau (b 1822, baped 1823).

In the marriage of Marguerite Groleau (b abt 1809) to Paul Saubourin, her parents are defined as Pierre Groleau and Marguerite Coutenais.

There is no document, a census or other, that directly and definitively ties Marguerite Groleau (b abt 1809) to Jean Baptiste Groleau (b 1822) as siblings and of the same parents. However, we can assert they were, based on the parentage stated in his bap record and her parentage stated in her marriage record.

The only document I've found that references Marguerite Coutenais as aboriginal is the bap record of Jean Baptiste Groleau. In the 1851 Census, the "Indien" (column [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]) indicates "1 fem" in the line of Mme Pierre Groleau (Marguerite Coutenais). This evidence, according to the OP, in not conclusive enough. I'm not aware of who is reviewing the data, but it would seem if this evidence is presented in context, it should fly. Unfortunately, the OP states they're not versed in genealogical research. This makes it difficult for them to understand how to evaluate the evidence and articulate and make their case stand.

Again, I'm not the entity that needs to be satisfied, but I would be making the argument "if and then" to whomever is.

Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

brad_lafortune

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 12 Nov. 2011 11:50AM
Classification: Requête
Noms de famille: sabourin, groleau, coutenais

That's interesting. Thank you for this information.
Could you by chance link me to information/documents that I would use to infer that they were siblings?

Also, before I begin searching through census data and such of the other children of Marguerite Coutenais and Pierre Groleau, have you already searched to see if any of them identified and "M" or Métis/Mulatre in any of their documents?

I'm wondering if perhaps another way for me to go would be searching for a document where one of the other siblings of Marguerite Groleau (Sabourin) and then link them to the same parents - just in case they don't accept this "inference" for Pierre David Groleau.

Thank you

Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

daciodan

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 12 Nov. 2011 12:39AM
Classification: Requête
Modifié: 13 Nov. 2011 09:34AM

Brad,

No matter the goal, and I understand yours, this is hard core historical research. It takes TIME and PATIENCE, there are volumes of data to sift through, review and evaluate.

As mentioned, this geographical area in this time period is exceedingly difficult, even for someone with a high degree of skill. The records are in poor condition and there are gaps in the records, some just don't exist, at least not on the on-line databases.

I can see there are a boatload of descendants of Pierre Groleau and Marguerite Coutenais, that makes it all the more curious there has not been ONE curious enough to do the research. Many people claim aboriginal origin, this appears to be a valid one, and the research can only go so far on-line. Usually there's one descendant that makes this a topic for their thesis, but I don't see evidence that anyone has done that, at least not what I find in on-line archives.

As mentioned, there's enough evidence to assert who the children of Pierre Groleau and Marguerite were.

For a specific examples, David Groleau (b abt 1808) was the godfather to the first born child (Justinien Sabourin, b 1831) of his (asserted) sister Marguerite Groleau (b 1809) and Paul Sabourin. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=drouinvitals&a....

The date of this record, 1831, is important. There is no evidence of another David Groleau in the area that could have performed the duties of godfather. The qualification to be a godparent required the person had the Catholic rite of "Confirmation". This rite was typically done btw the ages of 10-14. Therefore we can assert this godfather, David Groleau, was born before the 1820's. There is only one David Groleau that fits that profile in the geographical location, and can be asserted is David Pierre Groleau (b abt 1808). However the "evidence" of the relationship can still only be asserted, because it is not WRITTEN in the record he was the UNCLE of the child.

Marguerite (Coutenais) Groleau (b abt 1791) was godmother to a couple of her grandchildren, but none of Marguerite Groleau (b abt 1809) & Paul Sabourin from what I have seen so far.

Here is one record to Pierre Groleau (b 1846), son of Michel Groleau (b abt 1815) and Helen Thivierge. Michel Groleau (b abt 1815) was a sibling of Marguerite (Groleau) Sabourin (b abt 1809). http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=drouinvitals&a...

Typically close family members, especially the grandparents, are godparents to the first born of children in the next generation. This is mind numbing work, especially because of the naming patterns, which this family used. Naming patters can be useful to identify possible relationships, but there are Pierre, David, Michel that cross a few generations of this clan, and keeping them straight and in context takes time and work.

I found a marriage record for a sister of Marguerite, Helene Groleau (b 1825) to Pierre Leduc, 24 Feb 1840 in Montebello. In this record Paul Sabourin is a witness, and noted as a servant to the father of the husband (groom). However,I can't conclusively state this is the Paul Sabourin that married Marguerite Groleau (b abt 1809).

As I said, the relationships can only be implied or asserted, since the relationships are not expressly noted in the records.

Ideally, finding the marriage document for David Groleau to Marie Frappier would be the one to find, I have my doubts it exists.

Building our the Frappier line might help to pinpoint another area it may have occurred in. You're looking for where other female siblings of Marie Frappier, and those close in age to her, were married. That's a whole lot of research, but there may be clues that can only be discovered by this method.

Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

daciodan

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 12 Nov. 2011 02:36PM
Classification: Requête
Modifié: 13 Nov. 2011 09:10AM

[Brad wrote]

>>Also, before I begin searching through census data and such of the other children of Marguerite Coutenais and Pierre Groleau, have you already searched to see if any of them identified and "M" or Métis/Mulatre in any of their documents?<<

No, there is no other census record that I have found and I've found them all.

Plotting out a time and geographical timeline will help you understand what you can and can't find, and might look elsewhere.

The last sighting I have found for Pierre Groleau (b abt 1778) and Marguerite Coutenais (b abt 1791) is in the 1851 Census. There are no references to them in any record I've seen after that census.

I have found the same lack of burial data for lines I am researching in the same area in the same time period. I don't have an explanation for this.

The next Groleau child (after David Pierre (b abt 1808) and Marguerite b abt 1809) that I've documented is Michel (b abt 1815). He disappears after the 1851 Census (Ripon, Petite Nation) he's found in. His wife (Helene Thivierge) is deceased by the 1851 Census, however no burial record for her has been found. There is a bap record for their last born child, a son Thomas, born/baped in 1847 in Montebello. The only parish that was functioning within that greater area at that time was Montebello, I'm clueless why there are no burial records for many individuals in that area. The son, Thomas shows living with other (Thivierge) relatives in 1861, as I said, Michel his father disappears after 1851.

The next sibling, Joseph (b abt 1821), is listed with his parents and a wife (name unknown) in the 1851 Census. No further documentation has been found on him, not any that I could conclusively verify.

The next sibling, Jean Baptiste (b 1822), is not in any census I could find.

The next sibling, Helene Groleau (b 1825) is not in any census. Her children (with husband Pierre Leduc) are dispersed in the others households in Ripon, Petite Nation. The last sighting of her and her husband is the bap record of daughter, Marie, b 1848.

The next siblings, 2 females, Lucie (b 1828)* and Brigitte (b 1832)** both died by 1832.

* Lucie's bap record indicates her godmother is Marguerite Groleau, who is most likely her older sister, but not specifically cited as such in the record. Again, the date matters here. We can assert this was her older sister, because there are no other Marguerite Groleau's in that area, in that time period. [SEE the post below, tjacynthe found a the relationship mention within the record]. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=drouinvitals&a...

**Brigitte's bap record indicates her godfather was Paul Sabourin and godmother, Brigitte Sabourin. The relationships are not indicated, but it can be asserted that they are her (the child's) brother-in-law, and his sister, for whom she was the name sake. Again the date of the record, 1831, matters. Paul Sabourin was married to Marguerite Groleau by this time. Ruling out all the existence of other Paul Sabourin's living in the area might help make this claim more valid.

The last sibling, Charles (b abt 1833) was married in 1858 in Ontario to Philomene Gagnon. I have not found this marriage in a church record, a civil record transcription is on-line, but that doesn't indicate whether the parent are still living. I have found no bap for him. The census records for him give no aboriginal indication. He died in 1879.

Objet : Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

tjacynthe

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 12 Nov. 2011 05:27PM
Classification: Requête

* Lucie's bap record indicates her godmother is Marguerite Groleau, who is most likely her older sister, but not specifically cited as such in the record. Again, the date matters here. We can assert this was her older sister, because there are no other Marguerite Groleau's in that area, in that time period. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=drouinvitals&a......

Hi,

I read Marguerite Grolot "soeur de l'enfant". So we can confirm that she is her sister.

It's a good work ! very interesting to read !

Re: Objet : Re: Objet : Re: Objet : David Groleau, son of Pierre Groleau

daciodan

(Afficher des articles)

Affiché: 13 Nov. 2011 09:07AM
Classification: Requête
Modifié: 13 Nov. 2011 09:11AM

Good catch tjacynthe, I stand corrected. ( I made a note in my post above).

Ré: William Leroux & Rose (née Vinette)

[size=16]"Re: Ré: Photo de groupe[/size]

De Paulette A François Pigeon, Ven 25 Aoû 2017, 5:49 am

[size=16]Rappelle moi avec qui était marié Arthur que je regarde pour sa fille Jacqueline ....si ca te va bien sur !"[/size]

[size=16]Oui, elle fait partie de la photo de groupe ([Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]). C'est le dernier détail qui manque. [/size]

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